Thursday, September 6, 2007
Juchitan Queer Paradise
Many of you have watched the first film in the Women's Studies Film Series, Juchitan Queer Paradise. We have been talking in class about the differences in how societies construct gender and sexuality. The film documents a society that is very different from our own. Prostitution and extra-marital sex are not seen as immoral and children do not seem to be shielded from conversations about sex in the way they would be in our society. What do you think accounts for these differences between our culture and Juchitan? Should we impose our value system on Juchitan and label their behavior as immoral? Some societies think that the way people in the U.S. live their lives is immoral. Does that mean that we should change? How do you know what is immoral?
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I don't believe we should impose our value system on the people in the documentary. It would be terribly ethnocentric of us to think that we know what's best for everyone.
I think the US does need to change but it has nothing to do with others opinions of us. I truthfully have no idea what is immoral. I know what my morals won't allow me to do, but as long as people aren't impeding on anyone else's rights I don't see the problem .
This was pretty shocking not only that in this community were gays out and open and accepted but the way they were just so different than here. I didn't only find this shocking because it was different but I found it intresting because it was different. No I do not think anyone has the right to tell somebody what they do is right or wrong because they themselves do not know that what they do is right or wrong. The only way I think we know what is immoral is based on how we are raised and in what culture we are use to.Like it was said in class maybe they think we are werid in the fact that we dont have sex outside of marriage or in the fact that we dont celebrate the dead in the way we do. So though I think its shocking I would in no way tell them they were wrong or tell them that they are immoral and shouldn't be doing it.
We certainly should not try to ever impose a different value system on Juchitan or any other culture, country, etc. There really is no set right or wrong. The reason why we even have value systems is because of many years of cultural influence as well as historical background, religious belief, and time.
I personally admire Juchitan for being so open about gay culture and so honest about sexuality. It's a true part of human nature that should be talked about and embraced, not taboo.
If they don't impose on us we shouldn't impose on them. This was actually really refreshing to see. I've watched movies/documentaries that has many victims of people who just want to be themselves. The Juchitans were so freely accepted by their families, peers and associates that I found myself not thinking "he is strange for being like that" but more "wow what it must feel like to be embraced by the ones who love you even if you're not the same". It has to be such a tight community to walk around feeling proud of yourself and not feel threaten. I wonder though if they feel claustrophobic because depending on which way you travel north or south other communities will see you differently and not tolerate it one bit.
As far as immoral issues go how could we think it is immoral to live like the Juchitans but think it was moral to treat a human being in a malicious manner if they were homosexual or just not like "us".
I believe that being gay is a choice. A person can be born with that predisposition, the desire. Giving into that desire is a choice. The desire might become too strong that it becomes the path of least resistance. The Juchitan culture Cleary promotes the gay lifestyle, making it very easy to give in to that desire. Entertaining the desire through fantasizing, experimenting, being openly exposed, promoting, even the consumption of alcohol all play a huge part in weakening the resistance.
Society calls homosexuals a third gender. I believe it’s a gender that man made, through weakness, and selfishness for their own pleasures. What is it saying to the opposite sex? We don’t need you, we can do it all ourselves. They are feeding their ego for personal power.
There were some statements of God, but stated with half Truth. “Sex comes from God” Yes, but not to be used against His will. “God made me that way”. God made them with the desire; He gives us trails and tribulations. Most of the other statements were half Truths also. Having only half the Truth does not make it moral.
ok so when i sat down i had no clue what i was in for i guess b/c of the short video in class would lead to the continue of it... WOW i was really surprised the part that bothered me the most i guess was when the teacher in the movie (obviously gay) told a straight man that he was not a real man if he hasn't "screwed a fag" and the guy change his words and said he guess he just never had the opportunity to do so...and the teacher talked the straight man to comming home with him apperantly to have sex and the man went... i just thought it was so CRAZY that he talked him in to going!
11am
To comment on what Gale Marie said, I don't believe that homosexuality is a choice. It pains me to think that in a society as advanced as ours people still believe that. It’s like asking a straight person, “When did you choose to be heterosexual?”(paraphrased from what Eli said in the documentary). I do agree that some of the statements that were made in the documentary were inappropriate. The one gentleman telling the other that until he had intercourse with a man was not a man himself, I wasn't thrilled with. I also didn’t like some of the terminology they used such as “fag” the P.C. vernacular is gay or homosexual, although in my opinion “homosexual” sounds so very clinical. I have chosen to chalk their ways of speech up to cultural differences and translation. Some of the statements that acknowledged Christianity within the documentary I did agree with. I don't understand how someone can judge others so harshly. If you've never been in another person’s shoes how can you truly understand what anyone goes through?
I believe that Gale Marie’s statement was with the basis of Christianity in mind and I would like to respectfully disagree with the point that she has made. Personally, I don’t agree with much in the Bible, but I am quite familiar with the book. I can’t quite rap my mind around a book that has so much pull yet has been edited to death. Books are missing, stored in the Vatican somewhere and after being translated over and over, from one language to the next I’m sure “ the word of God” has been misinterpreted a time or two. I’ve tried to put my personal beliefs about Christianity aside and write this to explain to a believer why they shouldn’t have some of the views they do especially with regards to sexuality.
I’m assuming that in her comment Gale is referring to Leviticus 20:13 (If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination....") or possibly Genesis 19:1-11 (the story of Sodom and Gomorrah), which is commonly used to convince Christians that homosexuals shouldn’t be afforded basic human rights. First of all, to understand biblical references to homosexuality (or supposed ones), such as the one above, you must understand the culture at that time. The Middle East is different from our culture today and it was a world away in the B.C.E. timeframe in which we are looking at in the early books of the Bible. In these times, from what theologians and scholars have collected it is safe to say that society was patriarchal. Theologians believe that it is written in the manner that it is, which only mentions men, was so that gender roles weren’t confused. If there were two men together, one would be lessened to the status of a woman in the vertical hierarchy that was all that society had known. Which is another reason that lesbianism isn't mentioned, because women were property of the men. Second, you must take into consideration what the word abomination is in a Biblical sense. The word abomination meant unclean or unclean act. At one time or another, menstruation, attending a burial and giving birth have all been abominations (Lev. 12:2-5; 15:16, 19; Deut. 23:11; Num. 19:11). Eating any food that is not kosher is an abomination (Lev. 13:3-7 & Deut. 14:3-8). Most of us therefore are guilty of disregarding “Purity Laws” and filing them as antiquated and unnecessary in modern society. Another point to recognize is that children were responsible for labor and they received the inheritance when the father died. So, to not have children to work the field, have heirs and contribute to the population wasn’t practical and therefore was shunned. Lastly, to approach the passage in Genesis that references Sodom and Gomorrah the passage doesn’t even mention homosexual sex, it mentions male on male rape. Generally, in times of war or to humiliate a man of another culture a man would “sodomize” him. Basically, it was to emasculate the man that was being raped by treating him like a woman. The moral of the story is NOT that homosexuality is wrong, but that abuse against strangers is wrong.
SO, all and all I haven’t found “proof” in the Bible saying that God didn’t make those men in the documentary gay. So saying that they are giving "half truths" really has no basis, in my opinion.
*~Straight but not Narrow~*
Resources
hrc.org
http://www.trinitymcc.com/worship
"Juchitan Queer Paradise"
The Bible
http://www.jewfaq.org/kashrut.htm
This movie made me realize I am not as liberal thinker as I thought I was. Gay people in general don't bother me and I would not try to impose on them to change.
It did bother me (and I feel the same way as ebonylambert) when the teacher-gay in the movie told a straight man that he was not a 'whole man' if he has not "screwed a fag." Is it not imposing on straight people to change and start sleeping around?
Maybe it is not our bussiness to impose our values re prostitution and extra-marital sex on anyone BUT I think the Juchitan community ought to be educated about all STD (sexually transmitted diseases), HIV etc. Especially by their own teachers.
How do I know what is immoral? I know what I was taught in school, or by my parents. i.e. I think pedophilia is immoral; do all the pedophils in prison think that too? Probably not.
If my/our values are different from other cultures, so be it.
I have to admit, after watching this film I did find it a bit shocking. I think the reason for this is simply because our culture does not allow for us to watch a film like this and think to ourselves: 'wow, good for them.' I'm not use to seeing so many different types of people with different types of sexualities openly talking about their way of life. I don't necessarily think this is wrong..it is just different. I don't think the U.S. should try to impose on the Juchitan moralities in any way because that is their culture, that is how they were brought up, that is the foundation for their beliefs and values. I don't think anyone in the United States would welcome another culture coming in and trying to change our belief system whether it be wrong or right, or moral or immoral.
I agree with ebony lambert. The scene that showed pressure being put on the heterosexual man to have sex with a man was very uncomfortable for me as well. It was disrespectful and intolerant for the homosexual men to put such pressure on him. I feel the heterosexual man made his decision under duress. Shouldn't tolerance and respect go both ways?
WOW! america lighten up!! why is sex so hush hush in this country?? It is an aspect of yourself,why ignore it because it might upset others.The heterosexual world has been telling gays forever that they are a joke,so the teacher very cleverly turned the same crap the gay community hears all the time on a straight man.how does it feel.i had this same conversation with two very devote christians in the Rome airport,i told them this--everyone's truth is different,who are you to say i am wrong.
There seems to be more focus on whether it’s right or wrong to infringe on the rights of free choice. Free choice is our right, but it’s how those choices, through their rippling effect, are imposed on me. The other main issue then is how it affects our society as a whole. The effects it has on the breakdown of the institution of marriage and family, the welfare of our health and economy due to the exponential growth of STDs, and how it adds to the confusion of one’s own sense of identity, just to name a few. It is an imposition on us because it does affect us in these areas.
I do not understand this “ripple effect” you speak about. If others aren't interfering with your rights, what gives you the right to interfere with theirs?
First, everyone that is careless about sex and not conscious of practicing safe sex is at risk of STIs. Viruses and bacteria aren’t too particular about the sexuality of the person that they infect. If you are speaking of HIV/AIDS you are partially correct, HIV/AIDS is easier to transmit via anal sex then by way of vaginal or oral sex but that’s because of the type of tissue involved but either way your partner would need to be infected for you to contract it. Last time I checked, a good number of women participate in anal sex as well (whether they’ll admit to it or not is a completely different story). Furthermore, statistics that areavailable most scientists view as inaccurate estimating that 75% infected people haven’t been diagnosed let alone reported. Next, I would like to address the “ institution of marriage”. I think that’s pretty much shot after we have given celebrities that right (i.e. Brittney Spears in her 55 hour marriage). A prime example of how marriage is treated in the US is Las Vegas. I just can’t defend marriage when people can go there and get married at a drive up window like they were ordering it at McDonalds. Moreover, the divorce rate in the United States has skyrocketed over the last few decades it is now estimated that 50% of current marriages will end in divorce. At the moment the divorce rate is fluctuating between 40% and 50%, for those of you that aren’t great at math it’s hovering in the half range. Also, the separation of church and state is a wonderful thing; unfortunately it’s not being honored by the government in regards to the LBGT community to having the right to marry. If the church’s opinion had anything to do with legislature, divorces wouldn’t be aloud and women still wouldn’t be able to use contraceptives. Although some clergy suprised me earlier this year, in January in Annapolis, "245 Maryland Clergy from Eleven Denominations say 'it's not moral' to ban marriage and legal protections for same-sex couples," according to Equality Maryland.The religious leaders deliered the General Assembly a letter opposing an anti-gay constitutional ammendment. In my opinion, the reason gay, lesbian and transgender people should be given equal rights is because they are human. The majority has always withheld basic human rights from the minority and it should stop now. Here are just a few rights that come with being married that currently the LBGT community isn’t given with civil unions: hospital visitation (if their partner is ill), social security benefits, health insurance, estate taxes, retirement savings, family leave, immigration rights (bi-national families), and nursing home provisions not to mention the 1,000 government programs that they are currently unable to participate in [HRC.org]. Lastly, being gay, lesbian or transgender is not a confusion of identity. In fact, it’s knowing exactly who you are, it’s a part of you.
On a final note, “Hate crimes occur when a perpetrator targets a victim because of his or her membership in a certain social group, usually defined by race, religion, sexual orientation, disability, ethnicity, nationality, age, gender, gender identity, or political affiliation,” according to Wikipedia. For someone who says in other posts that they would use their voice to protect others from hate crimes, I believe that you are a contributor to the biggest one that the nation has seen since the civil rights movement.
~*Straight but Not Narrow*~
Resources
HRC.org
Wikipedia
m-w.com
Equality Maryland
Religious Coalition for Civil Marriage and Equality
I believe that if there is no moral code then the society may become corrupt and too accepting of the better value system the law should uphold. We have a society that upholds the law. The Juchitan people tended to be too permissive and tolerant to a system that will eventually lead to a immoral decline as evidenced in this film. These people gave into their lusts and sexual appetites to extreme and allowed the children to learn this behavior. Without the proper governing laws these people will eventually perish morally.
Not giving rights, such as marriage and legal protection, to people that are gay, lesbian and transgender is against one of the principal foundations of our country. The Declaration of Independence says, “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness." It does not say that all straight men are created equal, or that only straight men are granted the right to the pursuit of happiness. You say that we should uphold the law, should we just uphold SOME LAWS? Should we just give basic human rights to just SOME PEOPLE ? I am not sure about this moral decline that you are talking about. Generally and in my opinion, gay and lesbian couples would benefit the country. I’m certain that the divorce rates would go down and rates of children that are stuck in group homes would go down as well. If it is with religious basis, the thing that I love so much about this country is the separation of church and state. It is unlawful to say that people are unable to get married because of whom they love. I am truly at a loss that the country has let this injustice go on so long.
I agree with Brandy. This country was based the choice. Bottom line. As long as people ae living their lives and not hurting anyone or committing a crime, then let them. The founding fathers created this country as a separation of church and state. You have to admit that the whole gay debate is based on moral issues conservatives have against them. Separation of church and state...means no laws and issues should be passed based on religious belief but rather the what the country is based on.
I think it is funny that religious people are so against homosexuals just because the Bible says its wrong. Christians pick and choose their morals and beliefs. or example on passage says that homosexuality is a sin...but if you are going to follow that rule, then you HAVE to follow them all...
Exodus 21 vs. 7- it is ok to sell your daughter into slavery
Exodus 35 vs. 2- anyone who works on the sabbath shall be out to death
Corinthians 11 vs. 14- doth not even nature teach a man that a man with long hair should be ashamed... who had long hair? Jesus.
Corinthians vs. 19-24- a man should not go near a woman while on her period
so which laws and commandments should you listen to? you cant follow one and ignore the rest.
So thumbs up to people that do what makes them happy and screw all the people that judge you.
I think each society is different. The way people are raised is what they are used to. We are used to keeping sex conversations to a minimum and only with our partners, in Juchitan, they were raised where it is normal for them to be open about sex and have fa'afafinas.
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